ya i need help also
like i found the title page which is combined with the five books of the Histories by rodulfus Glaber
but i cant actually find the Life of St. William/deeds i guess
i found the pope urban speeches tho
Thursday, March 13, 2008
help with William
Hey,
sorry for the extra post but I am having a lot of trouble finding the William of Poitiers readings. Could someone who knows where in the reader they are please give me what readings they're between or something? I've looked through the thing 2 or 3 times now. Thanks!
Julia
sorry for the extra post but I am having a lot of trouble finding the William of Poitiers readings. Could someone who knows where in the reader they are please give me what readings they're between or something? I've looked through the thing 2 or 3 times now. Thanks!
Julia
Song of Roland posts
I've also chosen to respond to both posts this week.
1) Song of Roland and Heroism-
As we discussed in class, there are as many possible answers to the question "Who's the hero" as there are characters in the text. Is it Roland, whom the text is named for and who occupies so much of the talking and thinking time of the other characters present? Is it Charlemagne (who the text was originally named for) and in whose name this great battle is fought? He is presented as the essence of the ideal ruler. Is it Oliver, whose consistent balance of wisdom and battle valor (sometimes tragically) offsets Roland's single-mindedness? All of these are possible, and I believe all of them are correct. To me, the hero in Roland is a set of ideas and values. It is an abstract rather than an individual, something readers or listeners could strive towards. But comparing that conclusion with Beowulf, we come up with the important distinction of complexity. Beowulf, though just as gory and fun, was a simpler story. Beowulf was the hero. He always made the right decision, always won the battle, always got the treasure. Roland presents a much more complicated, dramatic picture and allows us to question much more deeply the nature of medieval heroism.
2) Ganelon's Trial and Medieval Justice-
Although I would like to agree with Harris' insightful post about the growing complexity of the legal system (noticing a trend here?), I disagree that the medieval French way of dealing with the law as presented by Ganelon's trial more closely resembles modern justice systems. Charlemagne's system seems to be more heavily based on practicality and logic than on high minded conceptions of right and wrong. We as a 21st century class agree that what Ganelon did (betrayal, treachery, murder etc) was wrong. But when he is brought to trial, there is a large contingent of Roland and Oliver's home population that thinks he should just be let go. After all, they argue, Roland is dead, the damage is done and no amount of punishment is going to reverse that. It isn't logical to deprive the king of a wise advisor just because he settled an internal feud with Roland. The idea that there is such a thing as private murder is also something foreign to our system of justice. But in this world, it was a personal disagreement, personally settled and doesn't concern the larger population.
1) Song of Roland and Heroism-
As we discussed in class, there are as many possible answers to the question "Who's the hero" as there are characters in the text. Is it Roland, whom the text is named for and who occupies so much of the talking and thinking time of the other characters present? Is it Charlemagne (who the text was originally named for) and in whose name this great battle is fought? He is presented as the essence of the ideal ruler. Is it Oliver, whose consistent balance of wisdom and battle valor (sometimes tragically) offsets Roland's single-mindedness? All of these are possible, and I believe all of them are correct. To me, the hero in Roland is a set of ideas and values. It is an abstract rather than an individual, something readers or listeners could strive towards. But comparing that conclusion with Beowulf, we come up with the important distinction of complexity. Beowulf, though just as gory and fun, was a simpler story. Beowulf was the hero. He always made the right decision, always won the battle, always got the treasure. Roland presents a much more complicated, dramatic picture and allows us to question much more deeply the nature of medieval heroism.
2) Ganelon's Trial and Medieval Justice-
Although I would like to agree with Harris' insightful post about the growing complexity of the legal system (noticing a trend here?), I disagree that the medieval French way of dealing with the law as presented by Ganelon's trial more closely resembles modern justice systems. Charlemagne's system seems to be more heavily based on practicality and logic than on high minded conceptions of right and wrong. We as a 21st century class agree that what Ganelon did (betrayal, treachery, murder etc) was wrong. But when he is brought to trial, there is a large contingent of Roland and Oliver's home population that thinks he should just be let go. After all, they argue, Roland is dead, the damage is done and no amount of punishment is going to reverse that. It isn't logical to deprive the king of a wise advisor just because he settled an internal feud with Roland. The idea that there is such a thing as private murder is also something foreign to our system of justice. But in this world, it was a personal disagreement, personally settled and doesn't concern the larger population.
Office Hours
I will be having office hours after section on Friday should anyone want to discuss their papers.
Although Ganelon was eventually hanged, he was neither found guilty by the “court” nor was he really on trial for leading Roland to his death. In fact he freely admits to plotting against Roland; however, he does attempt to claim innocence by declaring he did not betray the king and, by extension, the kingdom. This shows that feuds or killing others for revenge is not a crime and only family members are expected to take action, which embodies the concept of taking the law into your own hands. Moreover, the king makes it clear he wants Ganelon to be hanged, but, because he was found innocent by vote, this incident shows that king or rulers have limited power in the justice system. While the king’s wish fails to persuade the majority, Thierry chooses to take the king’s side and votes for Ganelon’s haning. More importantly, Thierry’s dissension seems to be enough to do so, which is demonstrated by Pinabel challenging Thierry to combat to prove Ganelon’s innocence. This turn of events shows that, while crimes are judged by a council, the verdict can always be contested and force, not reason, can be used. Because force is the deciding factor, medieval justice is shown to focus around strength of arms, and not reason. Lastly, Ganelon's trial as a whole shows that medieval justice is less about laws and justice and more about practicality, because the stronger person, the survivor, will be more useful in battle than the weaker person who was defeated. This claim is further strengthened by the council declaring Ganelon innocent due to their belief no one would be willing to fight Pinnabel to prove Ganelon guilty, which shows they did not wish to waste time with a pointless verdict.
Wednesday, March 12, 2008
Reading Assignments
Friday: William of Poitiers, Deeds of William and The Two Speeches of Pope Urban, both in the reader
Monday: Anselm of Bec, Prosologion: prologue, 1-5; Guanilo's reply and Anselm's response.
Monday: Anselm of Bec, Prosologion: prologue, 1-5; Guanilo's reply and Anselm's response.
Tuesday, March 11, 2008
Blog Assignment 6
How does the author's portrayal of heroism in the Song of Roland compare to some of our earlier texts like Beowulf?
Or
What might the description of Ganelon's trial tell us about concepts of medieval justice?
You can answer one of these questions OR you can answer both questions and get credit for two blogs for those of you who have been naughty and not blogged as much as you should have. Remember, these count for 10% of your overall class grade!!!
Or
What might the description of Ganelon's trial tell us about concepts of medieval justice?
You can answer one of these questions OR you can answer both questions and get credit for two blogs for those of you who have been naughty and not blogged as much as you should have. Remember, these count for 10% of your overall class grade!!!
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